IRC Logs for #crux Monday, 2020-03-09

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cruxbot[opt.git/3.5]: [notify] liboil: dropped unmaintained port05:05
cruxbot[opt.git/3.5]: [notify] dotconf: dropped unmaintained port05:05
cruxbot[opt.git/3.5]: [notify] speech-dispatcher: dropped unmaintained port05:05
cruxbot[opt.git/3.5]: [notify] gftp: dropped unmaintained port05:05
cruxbot[opt.git/3.5]: [notify] mailman: dropped unmaintained port05:05
cruxbot[opt.git/3.5]: [notify] dnspython: dropped unmaintained port05:06
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SiFuhdlcusa: the Z Box looks pretty cool08:01
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frinnstDear RIPE NCC members,08:41
frinnstFollowing global concern regarding the COVID-19 outbreak, we’ve been08:41
frinnsttaking measures to protect our staff and guests at all of our events.08:42
frinnsteverything is cancelled D;08:42
Romsterlets cancel everything and stop travelling between countries08:45
Romsterstay in our houses for 2 weeks08:45
TimB_let's make that 408:46
ryuoscrew 4 weeks, we're taking this to 5.08:47
ryuo>.>08:47
frinnsthttps://i.imgur.com/DhZuVuS.jpg muddy!08:52
TimB_frinnst: looks like somebody had fun riding to work today?08:52
frinnstnah, from yesterday :)08:53
Romsterride though a car wash :D08:54
frinnstfirst proper ride this year09:00
frinnstit suuucked :D09:00
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SiFuhhttps://software.intel.com/en-us/neural-compute-stick10:03
ryuoSiFuh: wouldn't buy. Intel has a terrible track record with their niche products. it'll probably be abandoned in the near future and buried.10:14
ryuoSee: Galileo boards, compute cards, compute sticks10:14
SiFuhI just happened upon it whilst checking out micro PCs10:15
ryuoin that case intel NUC is probably going to still be a thing.10:15
ryuowow. it was first launched with sandy bridge?10:16
ryuoTIL10:16
ryuolmao... the sandy bridge one's latest BIOS is from late 201910:18
SiFuhhttps://www.ebay.com/itm/Fine-Top-Sony-VAIO-VGN-UX1XRN-Black-1-Auction-No-reserve/264660013624?hash=item3d9ef75238:g:5L4AAOSwhEteL00Y10:19
SiFuhWindows Vista  how old is this thing?10:19
ryuoSiFuh: 2006 it seems10:30
ryuohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Vaio_UX_Micro_PC10:30
ryuoSo REALLY slow.10:30
SiFuhyeah10:33
cruxbot[contrib.git/3.5]: coin-or-cbc: 2.10.4 -> 2.10.510:47
cruxbot[contrib.git/3.5]: gtk-sharp: fix footprint10:47
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john_cephalopodaHey11:00
TimB_heyo11:04
cruxbot[contrib.git/3.5]: neofetch: 6.1.0 -> 7.0.011:07
john_cephalopodaRomster: I got some issues with mpv 0.32.0 and audio-CD playback. It's a known issue and has been fixed with this commit: https://github.com/mpv-player/mpv/commit/f304a799350ced0f0a8882843e17bcd5fcea2e2511:09
john_cephalopodaI applied it locally and it works perfectly. Not sure if it makes sense to add the patch to the port though, I don't know how many cruxers use audio CD playback in mpv.11:10
TimB_btw: great idea to clean up opt Romster :) 'spring cleaning'11:16
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joacimwould be nice if windows could just fail consistently11:38
joacimremoval of hyper-v checkpoints last week. failed11:39
joacimremoval of hyper-v checkpoints today. merged disks successfully, no indication of failure anywhere11:39
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TimB_out of 4 windows workstations i manage at work, 2 are unable to install one of the latest updates.. no info on why, nothing out of the ordinary sfc/dism dance helped either11:42
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TimB_they are all identical, but differ in primary user11:42
TimB_you got to love windows11:42
joacimone server played with would not install through Windows Update or manually downloaded KBs, but would install just fine through sconfig11:46
joacimwhen it failed to install an update, a reboot would take hours too11:47
TimB_mh, sconfig? i tried via wsus offline update as well as the official updater in the settings menu11:54
TimB_anyway, i looked up the KB that it was concerning and it causes various issues for a lot of users11:54
TimB_missing desktop icons, etc etc, while the files still are in the user dir..11:55
TimB_mircosoft really got their game together i'd say11:55
joacimon servers with cmd, you have the sconfig tool11:57
TimB_ah, ok.11:57
TimB_these aren't servers, that might be it11:57
joacimfor non-servers, i've had to use the upgrade assistant11:57
joacimwhen that fails, I usually download the full iso and do an upgrade from that11:58
joacimassuming they run Windows 1011:58
TimB_yes, the method with the install iso i haven't done. i was there yesterday and i didn't want to spent too much time with it11:58
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cruxbot[opt.git/3.5]: hpcups: update to 3.20.212:56
cruxbot[opt.git/3.5]: samhain: update to 4.4.112:56
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dlcusaSiFuh, Z is definitely cool.; e.g., ECC in the ALU from the beginning when bits were less susceptible to cosmic rays (IBM took product liability very seriously), the programmable earthquake simulator that tests hardware resistance.14:40
dlcusacorrection: only parity checking in the box at the beginning--ECC was yet to be invented.14:47
SiFuhyeah15:05
cruxbot[contrib.git/3.5]: nsjail: fix build fail on warning15:23
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SiFuhso gtk3 version is 3.24.14 but the directory is /usr/lib/gtk-3.0/3.0.015:56
SiFuhgtk version 2.24.32 but the directory is /usr/lib/gtk-2.0/2.10.015:57
SiFuhwhy not 2.0.0 ?15:58
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stenuraaiieeeeeh, will gcc compilation ever end?  45 minutes already, 3.9MB prt-get log, 2.8 GB /usr/obj/ports/gcc, that is worse than clang. Never compiled gcc since 2.95.??18:55
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john_cephalopodastenur: It takes some time.18:57
SiFuhstenur: mines been going 2 hours18:57
stenurjohn_cephalopoda: SiFuh: thanks for the warm words.18:57
SiFuhbut then again I am compiling on a pile of crap18:58
john_cephalopodaBut it's still better than qt5 and waaay better than chromium.18:58
jaegerI can upload a built package if you like18:58
stenur@jaeger: no, no, thanks for all the help! We will overcome.18:58
stenurjohn_cephalopoda: these i do not do, luckily.18:59
john_cephalopodaChromium can take a few hours. qt5 is faster but still quite slow.18:59
john_cephalopodaFirefox takes ~45 minutes, thunderbird probably the same. Rust also about that time.18:59
SiFuhstenur: I am compiling on Intel Apollo Lake Pentium J4205 CPU  so I am guessing half a day ;-)18:59
john_cephalopodaI'm compiling on an Intel i7-8550U with 4GHz max clock.19:00
john_cephalopoda8 threads.19:00
stenurSiFuh: a NUC is an interesting thing.19:00
SiFuhdamn, I still have to do llvm and qt519:01
SiFuhstenur: doing this on a Beelink J4519:01
SiFuhmoving my TV box to CRUX since void was annoying me with it's stability issues19:02
stenurSiFuh: ok, no NUC. But neat and small.19:02
jaegermy HTPC is a NUC, been very happy with it over the years. This is the second model19:03
john_cephalopodaHm, reminds me that I got to upgrade my RasPi to CRUX-ARM 3.5 some time.19:03
SiFuhjaeger: yeah was looking at the NUC  seems nice. My main issue with the Beelink apart from an unstable cpu is booting. If I boot the kernel straight away it intermitenly doesn't boot. Just hangs on the Beelink logo. If I set boot timing to 5 seconds, then it is alright19:04
SiFuhstenur: I installed CRUX on an old Compaq Intel(R) Pentium(R) Dual  CPU  T2370  @ 1.73GHz. It took an entire day to compile qt5 alone.19:05
jaegervery odd19:05
SiFuhIt was a 4 day install. I ended up cutting a few corners19:06
stenurLooking forward for ARM. I think i will be using qemu-all for that, and cross-compile19:06
SiFuhjaeger: I was looking at the zotac boxes today.19:06
jaegerI also have a zotac box somewhere but I haven't messed with that one much, had trouble getting it to boot last time and never went back to it. One day19:07
jaegerzbox pi33019:08
SiFuhhah I was looking at the zotac pico pi47019:08
SiFuhIt's all dlcusa's fault though. He mentioned his Z Box and google got confused and send me links to zotoc19:09
john_cephalopodaI hope that affordable RISC-V silicon will be released someday.19:09
SiFuhRISC-V  I don't think it will ever be popular unless maybe AI tries to take over the world and modifies it19:10
john_cephalopodaThere are already a ton of institutions trying to push it and a few silicon processors.19:11
SiFuhHope they succeed19:11
joacimmight turn my games computer into a htpc. cpu is nice enough for it, and think it can run at a very low wattage paired with the correct PSU19:17
joacimi guess that xbmc rebrand is still the software of choice19:19
joacimcould also just use that on my RPI419:19
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john_cephalopodaI thought about giving a RasPi with Kodi to my parents so they can watch Netflix on their TV without having to use some strange proprietary boxen.19:24
joacimfor me it is tempting since it doesnt look like another thing to maintain19:26
joacimwith libreelec at least.19:26
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joacimpress a button for a firmware upgrade19:26
TimB_if you feel like putting crux on your pi4 to use kodi, i do have a working port for it :>19:28
SiFuhTimB_: i use sonarr19:29
TimB_SiFuh: i never tried that19:30
SiFuhrequires mono19:30
DracoSentienI want to install crux . I am using Debian Buster now. I have one quick question.19:31
SiFuhI use to use sickbeard but i wanted to be able to choose in settings what size the download should be depending on quality, so ended up taking that path19:31
SiFuhDracoSentien: yes?19:31
DracoSentienthe kernel that comes with crux has no non-free firmware like debian ?19:31
jaegersonarr is solid stuff19:31
DracoSentienSiFuh: I have a wifi card that needs non-free firmware blob19:32
jaegerDracoSentien: the kernel that comes with crux is vanilla19:32
pedjahow's the kernel support with rpi4 these days? did all the parts end up in 5.5?19:32
jaegerYou can add whatever firmware to it you like/need19:32
SiFuhDracoSentien: what wifi card?19:32
DracoSentienjaeger: that is what I thought so I need to put the firmware on a seperate usb stick or something right ?19:33
SiFuhDracoSentien: I have two wifi cards that require no free firmware and they are neither in the kernel or in linux-firmware. It wasn't hard to whip a port19:33
jaegerThe installation doesn't require internet access, I'd add it afterwards, personally19:33
jaegerBut if you require it during installation, it's probably enough to add it to /lib/firmware from a usb stick, I'd imagine. Haven't tried this myself19:34
SiFuhDracoSentien: if you know the name of the firmware you are looking for, it may be listed in the linux-firmware port   https://crux.nu/ports/crux-3.5/opt/linux-firmware/.footprint19:35
DracoSentienSiFuh: I see thanks19:35
SiFuhDracoSentien: the two I have is  realtek 8192eu and realtek 8812au19:36
SiFuhI didn't know debian put out relase 1019:38
DracoSentienSiFuh: looks like mine is in ports it is iwlfwifi so that means I can just use an ethernet jack then install it19:38
DracoSentienSiFuh: yeah, my favorite OS os openbsd but OpenBSD does not work totally on this laptop so crux it is19:39
SiFuhDracoSentien: same with me.19:39
jaegerlinux-firmware should contain iwlwifi firmwares and it's available on the install media19:39
DracoSentienjaeger: cool thanks19:39
DracoSentienthat is all I need to know then19:40
DracoSentienNow I just have to download the install image etc..19:40
jaegerwpa_supplicant is as well, for reference19:40
SiFuhDracoSentien: I did a iwlwifi and an intel bluetooth device today. I cam across one issue. If I had it built in to the kernel it wouldn't load firmware, but if I had it as a module, it would load the firmware with out problems. I was actually suppose to mention it today and got sidetracked19:41
DracoSentienSiFuh: ok19:41
pedjaDracoSentien, I'd suggest using jaeger's updated iso thingie :) (those are still around, right?)19:41
jaegerSiFuh: that will be the case for anything that requires firmware - if it's builtin vs. module the kernel needs to include the firmware at compile time19:42
SiFuhjaeger: ahhh  ok cool thanks19:42
jaegerCONFIG_EXTRA_FIRMWARE is specifically for that, actually19:42
jaegerfor example, on my NUC where I have i915 compiled in:19:42
jaegerCONFIG_EXTRA_FIRMWARE="i915/kbl_dmc_ver1_01.bin"19:42
SiFuhoh ok cool stuff19:43
SiFuhI stle my i915 from clear linux and just boot it next to the intel ucode in initrd19:43
SiFuhfreestanding-00-intel-ucode.cpio freestanding-i915-firmware.cpio.xz19:44
DracoSentienpedja: found it thanks ! : https://crux.ninja/updated-iso/19:47
pedjanp. have fun with Crux :)19:48
DracoSentienI don't understand why crux is not more popular than slackware. Slackware is like dead.19:49
SiFuhDracoSentien: slackware is incredibly popular19:49
DracoSentienSiFuh: not anymore19:50
SiFuhNot to mention the multiple slack version distros out there as well19:50
DracoSentienSiFuh: yeah, but crux releases more often , official releases, it seems, and it has BSD style ports19:51
DracoSentienSiFuh: slackware is stuck in 199319:51
SiFuhYeah, that is true ;-)19:51
SiFuhI heard and haven't checked that Slackware is now 1519:52
SiFuhNope, still 14.219:52
pedjait was interesting to watch the rage when slackware added PAM, I think, recently :)19:53
SiFuhhahaha19:53
pedja"but, but, it was so pure!!1" ffs :)19:53
SiFuhthey are still coming up with systemd talks too19:53
DracoSentienSiFuh: yeah, dude, 14.2 was released  in 2016 and crux just had a release in 201919:54
pedjayeah, systemd/pa threads at r/linux are toxic af19:54
DracoSentienSiFuh: I'm getting rid of debian because of systemd and because crux is alot like BSD19:54
DracoSentienSiFuh: I'm not convinced that since systemd came from redhat that it is not an NSA conspiracy19:55
pedjathere is a more logical explanation for its popularity, thou19:55
SiFuhDracoSentien: I used Debian when I was working Kyrgyzstan. It was quite good. I didn't like the complexity of doing something so simple. But when that job was over I went to Slackware because OpenBSD doesn't support Nvidia. Anyways, I decided now that I have more free time I will return to CRUX and yeah, so much has changed since the 2002 says. Many cool scripts for install.19:56
DracoSentiennice19:57
SiFuhYeah, have a friend in Kyrgyzstan I have been guiding. Sometimes pops up on this channel. Was proud jaeger helped him the otherday about themeing gtk. He loved void and tried every distro he could. In the end I said, just go CRUX. He decided he will and he loves it.19:58
SiFuhHe needs a program, no worries, build your own port, it isn't difficult.19:59
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DracoSentienACTION types dd if=crux-3.5-updated.iso of=/dev/sdb conv=fdatasync20:01
DracoSentienw00t ! soon to be installing crux20:01
SiFuhw00t <-- haven't head that in years20:01
DracoSentienlol20:02
SiFuhThat was like a common word in #SuSE back int the late 90s20:02
john_cephalopodaDracoSentien: Be aware that some applications can take pretty long to build on CRUX. Chromium takes several hours, Firefox, Rust and qt5 take about an hour.20:02
jaegerthat "about an hour" depends entirely on your system20:03
DracoSentienjohn_cephalopoda: ok, especially since I turned SMT off on my core i5 for security reasons20:03
SiFuhhaha just ask stenur :-P Hows gcc?20:03
DracoSentien:P20:03
stenur68 minutes, 6.8 GB obj/, finally 36 MB package file.20:03
SiFuhmines still compiling gcc20:03
john_cephalopodajaeger: True, I am assuming a relatively recent Intel i3-7 system.20:04
stenuri5 8th gen, 8 GB ram/tmpfs, 512 GB NVME here. SMT turned off, 4 cores.20:04
SiFuhACTION shakes his head after the third hour 20:04
pedjafortran/clang are worse then gcc, iirc. (on a dual core :))20:05
SiFuhFunny, I thought to myself. CRUX is easy to install, should only take a few minutes. Starts install and then remembers, oh this ain't OpenBSD...20:05
stenurHave to turn off SMT here actually, Linux is much slower with it turned on, at least for such tasks like compiling kernel (40 percent more), for example20:05
SiFuhpedja: thanks for reminding me  I was to check if I needed fortran20:06
DracoSentienI have an older core i5 6th generation with only 4 GB of ram but I am going to upgrade to 16GB of ram20:06
stenurpedja: not here iirc. But its been some time.20:06
DracoSentienstenur: yeah, well I installed microcode for mitigtion security reasons for intel processors and it still bitched about data leaks and openbsd turns off SMT by default20:06
DracoSentienstenur: so I turned off SMT in the BIOS20:06
SiFuhpedja: ahhh crap I need it20:06
pedjaheh20:07
pedjacheck if Romster has a built package?20:07
SiFuh6 am where he is :-P20:07
john_cephalopodai7 8th gen, 32 GB ram/tmpfs, 1 TB SSD for the root fs, 2TB HDD for /home. SMT turned on, 8 threads.20:07
stenurDracoSentien: do not think i can here. I do "echo off > /sys/devices/system/cpu/smt/control" if that file exists in my system.sh and zzz.sh20:07
DracoSentienstenur: I think a lot of newer BIOS don't have the option to turn off SMT or so I heard20:08
stenurjohn_cephaloda: fat. :)  Out of interest, ever compared kernel compilation with/out?20:08
DracoSentienanyway, my liveusb iso is done so I have to go get read to install curx20:08
DracoSentiencrux20:08
stenurDracoSentien: i really think mine has not20:08
DracoSentienlater everyone thanks everyone be back later !20:09
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pedjazstandard python bindings sure have a lot of api\s to choose from20:12
john_cephalopodastenur: Never tried without SMT.20:13
pedjaand the docs are a bit, what's the word, terse?20:13
john_cephalopodaThere are little projects with really satisfying docs.20:13
stenurjohn_cephalopoda: here it is about ~10 minutes without, and ~14 minutes with for sure.20:14
stenurThe z* things have quite detailed doc in the C headers. It started with zlib.h, it lead the pack.20:16
pedjazstd is one of the coolest things that came out of FB :)20:18
stenurpedja: the only thing i know i always say :)20:18
stenurI really like it. Especially decompression is so fast, and always is.20:19
pedjaheh. apparently, they have a bunch of ml/ai stuff too, but that's out of my interest zone so far20:20
stenurOf course i am selfish and narrow-minded, yes. No idea in that area.20:21
pedjaI've been using zstd as an archiver for tarballs and stuff for a while now. it's pretty nice20:22
pedjaxz never worked that great on machines I have access to, tbh20:23
pedjaboth compression and decompression20:23
SiFuhpedja: still using lz4 here20:23
stenurIt has some neat things, like $XZ_DEFAULTS environment variable which reaches into scripts and such.20:24
stenurAnd it compresses a bit better than even "zstd -19".  But not thaaat much20:24
stenurBut lz4 is dead here. zstd is "better and faster". And i'm talking too much...20:25
pedjaI just pass '--adapt' to zstd these days :)20:25
pedjadynamic/variable compression, if I understood the docs right20:26
stenurInteresting. Never heard of it, 'using such for oggenc. Does not work in CRUX though since zstd port is not multithreaded right now (out of the box).20:26
pedjathe default is to use all cores for a while now, iirc20:27
SiFuhHAHAHA just saw this one on facebook "Due to Coronovirus all TCP applications are being converted to UDP to avoid handshakes."20:28
stenurpedja: nah, maybe with meson or cmake, direct make needs HAVE_THREAD=120:30
pedjahm, you are right, the default for '-T' (used threads) is 1. apologies :)20:49
SiFuhMr T20:50
SiFuhAlmost at hour 4, I think I will be asleep before GCC is finished compiling20:52
cruxbot[contrib.git/3.5]: python3-click: 7.0 -> 7.1.120:52
pedjadidn't arch made a big fuss recently about switching to zstd for their packages :)?20:55
pedjaI wonder how much of a difference would it make for behemots like cuda or libreoofice20:56
stenurUnpacking is very quick. Packing with -19 is very slow. But with -T0 and 64 cores or so, what counts as painful has changed20:58
stenurI use .xz for prt-get/pkgmk. This is painful at times.20:58
pedjaafaik, distributions using rpm are testing it for rpm packages20:58
pedjabandwidth saved, and all that20:59
stenurIt is also RFCd already. I think it will make it. CBOR and zstd make it.20:59
pedjawhat is CBOR?21:00
stenurThe flexibility in between -1 and -19, and the throughput when decompressing are just it. I do not know of any format which can span that much.  Binary format. "JSON in binary".21:01
stenurWell, that's where it started out. In the meantime many RFCs came by for extensions. But binary stream / file format.21:01
pedjaah, never heard of it, thanks21:01
pedja64 cores? I'd be happy with 4 :)21:02
pedja100% more then now21:03
stenurThat is a feeling i know. But at least you are on bare metal :)21:04
pedjaI would *love* to play with one of the aws compute thingies :)21:06
pedjait was cool to see in a 'Dask on HPC' video when he connected to Cheyenne and got a dozen workers21:08
pedjaterabyte ram, 360 cores :)21:08
pedjathey chewed thru the huge dataset he was showing pretty quickly, it was impressive21:10
cruxbot[contrib.git/3.5]: gcc-fortran: 8.3.0 -> 8.4.021:19
SiFuhoh thank goodness I haven't started compiling that yet21:19
Romsterhttps://crux.ster.zone/packages/3.5/contrib/21:22
SiFuhhaha21:23
SiFuhRomster: thanks, I pinched it already ;-)21:25
Romsterknew it21:25
Romstermore core opt compat uploading now21:25
Romsterrebuilding everything to new gcc21:26
SiFuhyeah but still compiling gcc ;-) 30 minutes away from a 5 hour compile21:26
Romsterouch21:26
SiFuhnew gcc?21:26
SiFuh8.4.0-1 I hope21:26
Romsteryes should be uploading now21:28
SiFuhcool, so I am compiling the latest version.21:29
Romsterhttps://crux.ster.zone/packages/3.5/gcc%238.4.0-1.pkg.tar.xz21:31
SiFuhcheers21:32
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SiFuhRomster: about to hit 5 hours for gcc compile ;-)21:53
jaeger=======> Building '/usr/ports/pkg/gcc-fortran#8.4.0-1.pkg.tar.xz' succeeded.21:55
jaegerreal    25m55.243s21:55
SiFuhjaeger: I am still laughing even long before you sent that21:56
jaegerThat's on the TR 2950X for reference21:56
SiFuhI am compiling on crap and I am now curious for the sake of comparing21:57
SiFuhwhen and _if_ i do gcc_fortran I will get you a real time on that21:57
jaegerok21:57
SiFuhbet it costs me 9 hours21:58
jaegerDo it while you sleep, then it won't matter21:58
SiFuhI would hope but I sleep 5 hours randomnly and gcc has not finished yet21:58
SiFuhjaeger: I compiled thunderbird on 3 VMs last night. 2 errored out lack of diskspace  20GB for ports22:00
jaegerNot too surprised, the mozilla stuff is usually large22:01
SiFuhanother succeeded and I was so happy it succeeded I forgot to check the disk size ;-)22:01
SiFuhlarge? that sounds so tiny in comparison22:01
SiFuheven colossal is small22:02
jaeger20GB of software compilation for a mail client seems large to me22:05
SiFuhit is obscenely stupid22:06
SiFuhI may have spelt that wrong22:06
SiFuhyeah I did, I forgot the word fscking before obscenely22:06
SiFuh20GB isn't the mail client alone, it is all the dependencies as well and the sources22:08
SiFuhIn fact, I will try a pure install22:08
SiFuhevery port and source deleted to give an idea22:08
SiFuhOh crap, just deleted rust and qt5... I will let you know next week22:11
john_cephalopodaI can recommend xdiskusage for checking disk usage. Really neat tool.22:14
john_cephalopodaThe biggest port directory is TexLive.22:15
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SiFuhjaeger: send tomorrow22:21
SiFuhjohn_cephalopoda: yeah texlive is huge22:21
SiFuhbe back in a couple or a few hours22:22
jaegerSend what tomorrow?22:22
jaegerreal    25m3.772s22:22
jaegerfor gcc itself22:22
john_cephalopodaMy gcc-fortran was 32m58 in when prtsweep removed the work/ directory.22:30
john_cephalopodaHm, it looks like prtsweep could use some update. It removes all .signature files and chokes on "COPYING" files in the root directory.22:33
john_cephalopodahttps://crux.nu/bugs/index.php?do=details&task_id=178922:41
stenurOpened a bug for opt/zstd. In fact my initial thinking was incomplete, the library needs even more special treatment.  Thanks pedja!?!23:43
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