IRC Logs for #io Wednesday, 2013-12-11

prologicWhat do you think C is written in?00:02
prologicno seriously00:02
prologicI think you're missing a very important vital aspect of programming languages here00:02
prologicAnd that is you can't have an egg without a chicken00:02
prologicAnd once you have both you can redefine one in terms of the other00:02
prologicand do away with the parent/grand-parent00:03
prologicHow would you write an Assembler without C in the first place?00:03
prologicIn fact go back about 30-40 years00:03
prologicHow would one of the first programming languages such as BASIC ever been designed and implemented?00:03
zephyrtroniumi don't see how this makes self-hosting necessarily a good thing00:03
prologicThen Fortran00:03
prologicIt's a necessarity00:04
prologicit _is not_ bragging rights00:04
zephyrtroniumis it a necessity to implement java in java?00:04
prologicAnd yes it is easier to reason about a language in itself00:04
prologicYes if you want to provide your own implementation00:04
zephyrtroniumpython in python? erlang in erlang?00:04
prologicthat doesn't depend on it's parent host environment00:04
prologicYes yes yes yes yes00:04
prologicagain for the same reason00:04
prologicThe only reason we don't see it a lot today00:05
prologicis because C is quite pre levant in most systems00:05
prologicBut C is basically a nicer Assembler/Assembly00:05
prologicGo ask #pypy why they are writing Python in Python00:05
prologicstrictly speaking Python in RPython00:05
zephyrtroniumif c prevails on all your targets, why is it better to self-host than to use c?00:05
prologica subset of Python with restricted types00:05
prologicWhat if you don't have a C compiler?00:06
prologicOr there is no C-compiler available?00:06
zephyrtroniumbut you do, because that was the prerequisite to my question00:06
prologicIt's not always the case00:06
prologicAnd C is not always an appropriate host language00:06
prologicAll I'm saying are two things:00:06
prologica) it's a necessity00:06
prologicb) it's not a bragging right00:07
buu_ze_gerbilhm01:19
buu_ze_gerbilso what problems are you gents solving in io?01:19
buu_ze_gerbilanyone doing synamic website on it?01:19
buu_ze_gerbilI saw scgi binding I think01:19
buu_ze_gerbilnot that I know scgi..01:19
prologicI'm not solving any problem in Io :/01:20
prologicI'm rather designing my own lagnguage01:20
prologicher is just very inspirational :)01:20
pdurbinprologic: when is C not an appropriate host language?01:30
prologica) when you have no appropriate C compiler, b) when you can't constructively discuss ideas in C c) when the semantics of C are too restrictive for your implemtantion01:34
prologicI could probably go on :)01:34
buu_ze_gerbilada?01:44
buu_ze_gerbilforth?01:44
prologicada could be used as a host language :)01:46
prologicbut a bit painful though01:46
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pdurbinprologic: the jruby guy really likes the introspection he can do in the jvm (as opposed to C)13:40
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stevedekorteinteresting self hosting conversation21:34
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prologicheh21:47
prologic*meh* I could be wrong :)21:47
prologicdunno21:47
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prologicstevedekorte, hehe I could be totally wrong *meh* :)22:14
stevedekortethe self hosting question is interesting22:15
stevedekortebut it comes down to the question of hardware22:15
prologictrue :)22:15
stevedekorteone can build hw to run sw natively22:15
stevedekorteany sw22:15
prologicthat is true - e.g: the jvm hw22:16
stevedekorteso any language has a wide range of possible hw it would be native on and then you could say all other languages are not "self hosting" on that hw22:16
stevedekorteself hosting is always relative to some hw and hw architectures can be radically are different and change over time22:17
prologicabsolutely22:17
stevedekortethe question of what combination of hw and sw makes the most sense is the most interesting one for me22:17
prologictalk soon - gotta get to work :)22:18
stevedekorteare current instruction sets and architectures the ideal? will they be here in 20 years? If not, then no language is self hosting wrt those future architectures22:18
stevedekortesame cya22:19
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